Thursday 27 August 2009

You Say Parrot I Say Potato

"Shurely a Parrot Croshbill Mish Monneypenny" ?

Following the BBRC decision to remove Parrot Crossbill from the BBRC list as outlined previously on this blog, and also reported in British Birds May Vol.102 p.275, the debate has ensued as to whether or not this is a good decision. There are some sensible points discussed HERE, though I am not sure about posts # 44 and #45 - and there was me thinking I was such a friendly and amiable chap ( which I am when you get to know me.....honest) !

For me BBRC decison on Parrot Crossbill is a kind of revelation, as last year the editor for the North East Scotland Bird report quite correctly insisted that I add a caveat in the text that none of my Parrot Crossbill records had been submitted for review by BBRC. So were my Parrot records credible ? This was my primary concern as, without the blessing of BBRC, these 'unverified' records (all mine !) could perhaps be seen as vague at best - "stringy" is the correct term, as I understand ? However, we all know that biometrically and bio-acoustically "Parrot" type birds have been getting trapped and sound recorded in Scotland for well over a decade. Thus back to the BF debate, which sadly I can't take part in. I sit on both sides of the fence on this one for the following reasons:

My own records of Parrot 'type' Crossbills now gain credibility and there is now an acknowledgement that Parrot type birds breed and are resident in NE Scotland, differentiated from 'migrant' records. Hooray, result !


Presumably all records submitted by other parties will also be accepted without verification ? But,what if these are mistaken or errant - given the ongoing confusion amongst most birders between Parrot, Scottish and even Common is this a wise policy ? Also, what about 'true' migrant Parrot type birds on Fair Isle or the Norfolk Coast - do BBRC not want descriptions of these either ?

Now, this really makes me sound omnipotent and selfish, doesn't it ? Basically, what I can be accused of saying is that I can ID Parrot Crossbills and nobody else can ? Well no actually, that is not what I am getting at, and far from it really. It is not that 'other' records can't be trusted but, in my defence, a lot of pictures I see of 'Scottish Crossbills' on the web, and even published articles, appears to be one of these Parrot type birds. So, if someone reports a specimen as Scottish Crossbill then it is, in all probability, very likely a Parrot Crossbill ! This may work in everyones favour regarding accuracy eg. a big billed bird is most likely a Parrot type, however some Scottish types do appear to overlap with the smaller end of the Parrot size range - at least they are considered as Scottish just now, but may be a modal bill size all of their own. Readers may remember a long since hacked and deleted post on this blog about a large billed crossbill sighted in Wales by Dan Brown ? My advice was that although the bird appeared to have a large mandible this could have been out of proportion to it's body - a small bodied bird with a disproportionately large bill can look 'Scottish' or 'Parroty'. There is a good example in Birds of Scotland of a profile of a Scottish type bird with a HUGE honker of a beak in the photo, yet it's bill depth was bang on for Scottish. It clearly had 'big beak, smaller head' syndrome !

Scottish, Parrots or Common? Ask the audience? Phone a Friend? Final Answer ?

For those sound recording to verify their 'observations' the flight calls are also very confusable, as I see time and time again - according to Knox, and Constantine and Mullarney, Parrot flight calls in Fennoscandia and on the continent can be quite variable, though I am not sure if they confirmed this with biometrically verified birds. Magnus Robb has also recently recorded some variation in Parrot Crossbill call types from several different irruptions into Holland. In Scotland there does seem to be some variation with Fc2. Poor sound signals can result in calls losing important structural features and frequency can vary with distance, and, it seems, simply by natural variation within a call type. Thus, these calls are easily confusable on sonogram. By ear, without much experience or suitable comparison, it would be very easy to confuse Parrot EcD with Common EcA, the latter sounds slightly higher, hollower in timbre and with more obvious harmonics - but what does that actually mean in the field ! ? Parrot Fc2 can also be very easily confused with the thinner "Cheepy" Fc1 of Common Crossbills that are prevalent up here in Scotland just now, both on sonogram and 'by ear'.

However,with tangible physical measurements such as biometrics or a sound recording a record can be updated or reviewed in the future should our knowledge change regarding crossbill speciation. A statement " 5 Parrot Crossbills at Anagach Wood" cannot. It simply infers that there were (possibly) several big billed crossbills there. Photos help to some degree but can be misleading - lots of shots of the same individual from different perspectives are often required.

Back to the Bird Forum debate and some of the comments, some of which mention me personally. James Spencer (Hotspur) writes in post #5 :

"If you adhere to Lindsay Cargill's identifications then most of the Scotsbill in the various bird galleries are actually Parrot Crossbill".

Yes and no James - I have basically suggested this as a generalisation, but I have not identified every single photograph on the web ! There clearly are some Scottish Crossbills on web galleries - there are even some of mine on the dreaded Bird Forum ! Granted a large amount of birds labelled as 'Scottish' would be classed as 'Parrot' type by me using my own experiences and under currently accepted classification and thinking here in Scotland eg. bios and calls as they stand.

In post #25 Richard Klim writes:

"Laurent Raty made the following comment during a recent ID-Frontiers discussion about the recently-described South Hills Crossbill (suggesting that Parrot is now more likely than Scottish at Abernethy):

"... medium-size-billed crossbills in Scotland [Scottish crossbills] are now found largely in alien conifer plantations, rather than in native Scots pine forests where they are supposed to have evolved [and where bigger-billed birds now occur]."

The quote by Laurent, a very knowledgeable and nice chap, regarding medium sized birds is an extent ! Scottish can occur in alien conifer plantations but generally at particular times of the year. This caveat is very important: In February scotica is usually back on territory in either native or plantation Scots pine. The problem being so is curvirostra, though some will feed on Larch until April if it is still present - this winter the Commons, and Scottish for that matter, were predominantly found on Scots pine throughout the year due to a Larch and Spruce crop failure. Scottish will move on to Larch in late summer and early Autumn and will flit between Larch and Scots Pine through the winter. They will aslo subsist on Spruce, particularly Norway if present, and Lodgepole.

However, all of this potentially gets even more complex, and this is my point: how may people are mistaking Common Crossbills for Scottish Crossbill ? Parrot and Scottish are always considered the ones that are confusable, but in reality it is probably Common and Scottish (under current classification criteria) that cause most problems. The female bird in the top banner of Loxia Fantastica is a second calendar year Scottish Crossbill. Be honest: how many of you would have had that down as Common ? The bill shape is not typical Scottish, certainly not from that angle, but the plumage definitely is, though Common's feeding exclusively on Scots Pine may also appear 'dusky'. The bird gave a Scottish type call.

In balance I think the BBRC decision is the right one - a few misidentified specimens of either species will be overshadowed by the hundreds of verified (but not submitted records) that crossbill researchers and enthusiasts collect, that till now have always been in a dodgy 'are they aren't they' area ! Bear in mind most of my records are confirmed by either calls or biometrics (colour ringed birds that have previously been trapped). Actually, in my opinion they still are in that 'dodgy area' for reasons cited in a post way down below regarding the possible identity of the true relict Pine Crossbill of the Great Forest of Caledon ( just my thoughts, half baked maybe), but at least it gives us an position to move on from should classification be altered in the future. 'Parrot Crossbill', in my book, is merely a label for the largest billed crossbills that exist in Scotland and also on the continent. The Scottish 'Parrot Crossbills' may be the 'same stock' as their continental counterparts, though maybe they are not, and are actually the real relict 'Scottish' pine wood species. Certainly food for thought I think


James said...

Hi Lindsay - i noticed you quoted me from BF - and I am completely in agreement with what you say in this post and perhaps the way I have worded it on BF isn't entirely clear but I used 'most' as a caveat. It is as you say a general rule of thumb - not that you have identified every Scotsbill photo as Parrot (or parrot type).


Lindsay Cargill (aka Loxiafan) said...

Hi James,

Yes, no offence taken at your initial BF comments - you are quite right to raise that point as I have said it many times on there (and elsewhere).

It is funny but photographer Jim Almond recently posted a picture of a stonking male Parrot at Abernethy on Birdguides and some of the comments still read " are you sure it is not a Scottish" ! I guess that is the point I am making.

Under current criteria it would have to be a 'Parrot' until someone can prove these things have actually been here in Scotland for the last 8,000 years or so (very difficult if not impossible). Even then it would not necessarily prove that they still weren't 'Parrots' !

Stephen Menzie said...

Very interesting post there, Linz. We commented about those birds we had last month that they weren't as massive billed as we had expected for Parrot and wondered how many visiting birders would have happily put them down as Scottish. A fair few, I expect!
This is rather telling, as well - "The differences between [the species] are very subtle and much debated, so if you see one, take your pick!". Isn't that was vising birders have been doing for years? Just given that they're in Scotland it seems to make the most sense to 'pick' scotica ;)

Stephen Menzie said...

Here's a woroking link to the picture in my previous post...

Lindsay Cargill (aka Loxiafan) said...

Hi Stephen,

The bird in your link on the (RSPB ?) sign looks good for scotica for me. They had a similar one at Corrimony but this has been taken down and replaced with Cresties and Black Grouse !

The birds you had in Grantown last month would have been typical 'pine' crossbills eg. classified as Parrots under current criteria. - the calls you sent were certainly Fc2. However, their bills depths would probably have averaged at around 12.5mm, roughy 1 mm more than Scottish and approx. 1mm less than Parrot under current criteria. Their calls are not as published Scottish calls but more like those for Parrot. So, WTF are they - small billed Parrots, hybrids, a new 'type'selected by the diverse forestry of NE Scotland ? ! What if these birds giving EcC and Fc3 are not really "Scottish Crossbills" ? Now, you can see where I am going...... The situation with the calls in NE is Scotland is far more complex than that which has so far been published, to the extent even I am not sure yet exactly what is going on ( and why I get touchy when people make sweeping assertions !). Hopefully in time my own biometric and call data will answer this.....and then again!

Stephen Menzie said...

They need a two-volume 1000+page book writing on them. Every slight variation within a call type and differences in bill depth need to be described as a new subspecies at the very least. Just change the title and the front cover pic on this and you're sorted.

Lindsay Cargill (aka Loxiafan) said...

Hi Stephen,

Aye, don't fancy writing a 1000 page tome on crossbills ! I do have both of those White-cheeked Geese books - the guy who sells them was very helpful as it was quite difficult to buy them via Paypal ! Incredible amount of fieldwork and a credit to the author. However, with crossbills I think we have to be careful not to label natural variation within a 'population' as a 'species' or even 'sub-species'. There are clearly Crossbill 'types' that deserve specific and sub-specific status, but it could get really silly if we get our slide rules out for calculating minute and subtle differences in component analysis of biometrics and small differences in calls to classify species ? I never like things to be that 'clear cut' anyway ! When we narrow down and get so 'small' we often miss the bigger picture.

julien said...

Pim Edelaar has informed me about your Blog. I'm a french (sorry for my english) bird recorder, and like you I'm a fan of Crossbills. I have a lot of Common Crossbills vocal types recordings, described by Robb, but some of them not already. For example I have recorded the same type you show in your sonagrams the 30th of April 2009. Last winter I have recorded a lot in a pinus corsicana area. 10 different vocal types were here, and I have spent good time, in December and January!
It will be a pleasure for me to share with you me recordings. If you want, contact me. Here is my mail:

Lindsay Cargill (aka Loxiafan) said...

Hi Julien !

Great stuff - a French 'Loxiafan'! So, mainland Scotland, Shetland* (!),France, Holland, Switzerland. Come on rest of Europe, your crossbills need you !

Interesting you had the 1A's in Corsican Pine - they are mighty big cones ?? We have a large forest at Culbin up the coast near Inverness and this is largely made up of Corsican Pine. I had no crossbills there in July this year but it might be worth checking again. I presume that these crossbills you had in Corsican Pines were prising open the closed cones in Dec/Jan ? Maybe some had opened by then, certainly some Scots Pine in Deeside had in Dec/Jan past.

Have you got any of the 4E (glips) that have been invading this year?
10 vocal types is some population you have down there ! We have quite a lot of variant calls in Scotland but generally there are usually two main Common types plus the 'pine' crossbills ( which are my main area of interest).

At the moment I am following several large flocks of 1A and 4E Crossbills and mapping out drinking sites to catch them at when the winds finally die down. A couple of my colleagues in Grampian Ringing Group are doing the same, so between us we should get a decent sample of bios and data from these irruptive birds. The calls to me don't look (or sound) typical Fc4 (or glip calls) but they would still be classified as this. I recorded some of these call types in Summer 2008 so some must have arrived at some point before the current 2009 influx.

Will drop you a private email so you can contact me directly. I have certainly got a couple of calls I would like to run past the likes of yourself and Magnus.

Pim Edelaar reads Loxia Fantastica ? ! I suppose I better start trying to make it sound sensible then !

julien said...

Hi Lindsay,
I don't know if cones on my Corsican Pine were big or not, but I can show you pictures and videos. Yes crossbills were prising open the closed cones in Dec/Jan and early Feb. After, I don't know, because I came the 10 February for my last recording session, but generally when Scots Pine cones begin to be partially open, they prefer to eat them. The 6th April,I came back in this Corsican Pine area: no crossbill...
And now I have about 15 Type C crossbills (4E for you(and Fc4 too?...I think you'll have to explain me your classification terms...I know 1A is Type E, 4E is type C (Summers, Jardine and al 2002), but 1A's, and all your Fc's and Ec's... I use Robb classification ...), so I have now about 15 Type C crossbills in a mixed Scot Pine and Corsican Pine area. And about five Type D too. And last monday Type C-4E crossbills were eaten semi-opened cones of Scots Pine, cones of last year, of course not the new generation ones, green and impossible to open for them.
And my Type C crossbills have a beautiful typical call and excitement call (and a quiet song theme I have already recorded for Type C birds last winter...)
PS again sorry for my english, I do what I can....